do i need a UK work visa?

[Uri Guttman]

hi all,

i am talking to a UK firm for a remote job. i would need an initial
training period and some regular visits. do i need a work visa for that?
most of my work would be remote (US). when i go to gov.uk it is not
clear what i would need for this. and work visas are very expensive.
could i just go on a tourist trip instead? no visit would likely be
longer than 2 weeks.

thanx,

uri

[Joel Bernstein]

Perhaps you ought to give the necessary information, like where you hold
citizenship from, and what basis your work will be on with the UK co.

https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa may help you to figure out your
eligibility.

I would not advise you to fraudulently enter on a tourist visa unless that
visa also permits business use.

https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y/usa/work/six_months_or_less

You may be able to get sponsorship from your employer for a tier 2
temporary visa: https://www.gov.uk/tier-2-general

Post by Uri Guttman
hi all,
i am talking to a UK firm for a remote job. i would need an initial
training period and some regular visits. do i need a work visa for that?
most of my work would be remote (US). when i go to gov.uk it is not
clear what i would need for this. and work visas are very expensive.
could i just go on a tourist trip instead? no visit would likely be
longer than 2 weeks.
thanx,
uri

[Joel Bernstein]

Additionally, as a software developer you may be eligible on the basis that
the UK wants people with your skillset:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-k-shortage-occupation-list

Post by Joel Bernstein
Perhaps you ought to give the necessary information, like where you hold
citizenship from, and what basis your work will be on with the UK co.
https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa may help you to figure out your
eligibility.
I would not advise you to fraudulently enter on a tourist visa unless that
visa also permits business use.
https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y/usa/work/six_months_or_less
You may be able to get sponsorship from your employer for a tier 2
temporary visa: https://www.gov.uk/tier-2-general

Post by Uri Guttman
hi all,
i am talking to a UK firm for a remote job. i would need an initial
training period and some regular visits. do i need a work visa for that?
most of my work would be remote (US). when i go to gov.uk it is not
clear what i would need for this. and work visas are very expensive.
could i just go on a tourist trip instead? no visit would likely be
longer than 2 weeks.
thanx,
uri

[Joel Bernstein]

Nonetheless, you're asking questions which a moment with Google will answer
for you. I won't reply again as I'm not prepared to do your googling for
you, especially when you have withheld crucial and obvious information.

Post by Joel Bernstein
Additionally, as a software developer you may be eligible on the basis
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-k-shortage-occupation-list

Post by Joel Bernstein
Perhaps you ought to give the necessary information, like where you hold
citizenship from, and what basis your work will be on with the UK co.
https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa may help you to figure out your
eligibility.
I would not advise you to fraudulently enter on a tourist visa unless
that visa also permits business use.
https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y/usa/work/six_months_or_less
You may be able to get sponsorship from your employer for a tier 2
temporary visa: https://www.gov.uk/tier-2-general

Post by Uri Guttman
hi all,
i am talking to a UK firm for a remote job. i would need an initial
training period and some regular visits. do i need a work visa for that?
most of my work would be remote (US). when i go to gov.uk it is not
clear what i would need for this. and work visas are very expensive.
could i just go on a tourist trip instead? no visit would likely be
longer than 2 weeks.
thanx,
uri

[Uri Guttman]

Post by Joel Bernstein
Nonetheless, you're asking questions which a moment with Google will
answer for you. I won't reply again as I'm not prepared to do your
googling for you, especially when you have withheld crucial and
obvious information.

i did google and even called the boston consulate (useless). the gov.uk
site doesn't help much either. it has nothing on short work visits.

as for missing or crucial info, i am a US citizen, the job would
contracting and i don't know what other info i need.

thanx,

uri

[๏̯͡๏ Guido Barosio]

AFAIK there are special agreements re working visas between the US and the
UK.

Post by Uri Guttman

Post by Joel Bernstein
Nonetheless, you're asking questions which a moment with Google will
answer for you. I won't reply again as I'm not prepared to do your
googling for you, especially when you have withheld crucial and
obvious information.

i did google and even called the boston consulate (useless). the gov.uk
site doesn't help much either. it has nothing on short work visits.
as for missing or crucial info, i am a US citizen, the job would
contracting and i don't know what other info i need.
thanx,
uri

[Tara Andrews]

In my experience (in general as well as in the specific case of the UK),
visa law doesn’t understand the concept of remote working. If you are under
an employment contract with a UK company, you need the right to work in the
UK. If the UK company has a subsidiary based in the US, and you have an
employment contract with that subsidiary, you need the right to work in the
US.

Best,
-tara

Post by ๏̯͡๏ Guido Barosio
AFAIK there are special agreements re working visas between the US and the
UK.

Post by Uri Guttman

Post by Joel Bernstein
Nonetheless, you're asking questions which a moment with Google will
answer for you. I won't reply again as I'm not prepared to do your
googling for you, especially when you have withheld crucial and
obvious information.

i did google and even called the boston consulate (useless). the gov.uk
site doesn't help much either. it has nothing on short work visits.
as for missing or crucial info, i am a US citizen, the job would
contracting and i don't know what other info i need.
thanx,
uri

[Julien Fiegehenn]

A company I know in the UK has allowed some of its foreign employees to
move back to their countries and go entirely remote. That entails switching
to freelance for each of them. They do their tax in their respective EU
countries where they now live, and write invoices. That appears to be
simpler for the company and the developers.

On Aug 14, 2018 06:34, "Tara Andrews" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

In my experience (in general as well as in the specific case of the UK),
visa law doesn’t understand the concept of remote working. If you are under
an employment contract with a UK company, you need the right to work in the
UK. If the UK company has a subsidiary based in the US, and you have an
employment contract with that subsidiary, you need the right to work in the
US.

Best,
-tara

Post by ๏̯͡๏ Guido Barosio
AFAIK there are special agreements re working visas between the US and the
UK.

Post by Uri Guttman

Post by Joel Bernstein
Nonetheless, you're asking questions which a moment with Google will
answer for you. I won't reply again as I'm not prepared to do your
googling for you, especially when you have withheld crucial and
obvious information.

i did google and even called the boston consulate (useless). the gov.uk
site doesn't help much either. it has nothing on short work visits.
as for missing or crucial info, i am a US citizen, the job would
contracting and i don't know what other info i need.
thanx,
uri

[Uri Guttman]

Post by Julien Fiegehenn
A company I know in the UK has allowed some of its foreign employees
to move back to their countries and go entirely remote. That entails
switching to freelance for each of them. They do their tax in their
respective EU countries where they now live, and write invoices. That
appears to be simpler for the company and the developers.

it isn't a tax issue for me (or likely my possible client). i can be an
independent corp and bill them as a customer of my services. the issue
is what happens when i visit the client in the UK and train/work there.
i know of a case where a german was able to be in the US for up to 6
months on a training visa before he had to apply and wait to get an H1B.
after googling around i see nothing of the kind in the reverse
direction. and as tara said, i feel remote work isn't well handled by
the visa system.

guido said there are special agreements with UK and US work visas but i
haven't found any info about them.

a call to the boston UK consulate was a waste of time. the US embassy in
washington just was the same voice menu garbage sending me to their
website. the website has nothing about remote work nor short working visits.

thanx,

uri

[Jeff Goff]

I appear to be somewhat uniquely qualified to contribute, as I've just
been awarded a UK Tier 2 General visa, only to have it revoked 1 week
before leaving for the UK because the company decided to can the entire
division I would be working for. And causing me significant problems,
because explaining my work situation only caused more confusion and pain
at immigration, requiring another lawyer (eventually) to straighten out.
Despite what the website(s) may say, software engineering is *not* on
the shortage list. At least with a 25-year background in programming I
didn't qualify under that category. That determination appears to be
up to the individual application examiner, based on the current hiring
trends. Don't take the website as gospel. In fact, unless you talk to
a qualified immigration lawyer, don't take *anything* you read as
gospel, on the HMRC website or anywhere other than at an immigration
lawyer's office.
While I don't doubt Guido's veracity, I would *very* much like to
know what tier this "short-term work visa" is for, as it would have
saved me a great deal of pain at the immigration stand a few days
ago. Immigration laws change routinely, and it's very likely that the
terms for these visas have changed (or been revoked) since Guido last
used that.
Uri, just to reinforce, the only safe option is to talk to an
immigration lawyer. I don't know what you've read in the US about the UK
leaving the EU, but it's thrown everything into chaos in this area. When
I first went over to the UK, I got a visa stamp straightaway and was
able to enter with no issues. Now, a scant 4 years later, I've had to
move back to the US, apply, get a timed vignette stamp, explain the work
situation at the border, and go down to a post office to get the final
*actual* visa card. Or would have, had the company not decided to cancel
the division I was going to work for and only have the grace to tell me
5 days before the vignette expired.

Post by Uri Guttman

Post by Julien Fiegehenn
A company I know in the UK has allowed some of its foreign employees
to move back to their countries and go entirely remote. That entails
switching to freelance for each of them. They do their tax in their
respective EU countries where they now live, and write invoices. That
appears to be simpler for the company and the developers.>>

it isn't a tax issue for me (or likely my possible client). i can be
an independent corp and bill them as a customer of my services. the
issue is what happens when i visit the client in the UK and train/work
there. i know of a case where a german was able to be in the US for up
to 6 months on a training visa before he had to apply and wait to get
an H1B. after googling around i see nothing of the kind in the reverse
direction. and as tara said, i feel remote work isn't well handled by
the visa system.>
guido said there are special agreements with UK and US work visas but
i haven't found any info about them.>
a call to the boston UK consulate was a waste of time. the US embassy
in washington just was the same voice menu garbage sending me to
their website. the website has nothing about remote work nor short
working visits.>
thanx,
uri

[Adam Witney]

This page suggests that you need a Standard visitor visa for training:

“you’re coming to the UK for a conference, meeting or training“

https://www.gov.uk/standard-visitor-visa

£93, 3 week decision, max 6 month stay, single visit but can pay more for multiple visit visas (still 6 month stay max though I think)

Adam


From: london.pm-***@groups.perlists.pm [mailto:london.pm-***@groups.perlists.pm] On Behalf Of Uri Guttman
Sent: 14 August 2018 06:51
To: Julien Fiegehenn <***@googlemail.com>; ***@alum.mit.edu
Cc: ๏̯͡๏ Guido Barosio <***@gmail.com>; London PM <***@groups.perlists.pm>
Subject: Re: do i need a UK work visa?

On 08/14/2018 01:42 AM, Julien Fiegehenn wrote:
A company I know in the UK has allowed some of its foreign employees to move back to their countries and go entirely remote. That entails switching to freelance for each of them. They do their tax in their respective EU countries where they now live, and write invoices. That appears to be simpler for the company and the developers.


it isn't a tax issue for me (or likely my possible client). i can be an independent corp and bill them as a customer of my services. the issue is what happens when i visit the client in the UK and train/work there. i know of a case where a german was able to be in the US for up to 6 months on a training visa before he had to apply and wait to get an H1B. after googling around i see nothing of the kind in the reverse direction. and as tara said, i feel remote work isn't well handled by the visa system.

guido said there are special agreements with UK and US work visas but i haven't found any info about them.

a call to the boston UK consulate was a waste of time. the US embassy in washington just was the same voice menu garbage sending me to their website. the website has nothing about remote work nor short working visits.

thanx,

uri

[Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes]

Post by Adam Witney
“you’re coming to the UK for a conference, meeting or training“
https://www.gov.uk/standard-visitor-visa

That would presumably mean receiving training, not offering it. Later on
- do paid or unpaid work

[Philip Davies]

Hi,

I can't recall any of my American colleagues ever needing a visa. We used to visit each other under the visa waiver program. However, they were employed by the American parent company, and I was employed by the UK subsidiary.

If you want to check the requirements here's the start url https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y

To quote one of the later pages:-

"If you come for other business or academic activities
You can stay in the UK for up to 6 months without a visa, but you can only do certain academic or business-related activities, eg:

go to a conference, meeting or training
take part in a specific sports-related event
perform as an artist, entertainer or musician
do academic research or accompany students on a study abroad programme
Check the full list of what you can do - it’s the same as what you can do on a Standard Visitor visa."

Phil

[David Leadbeater]

Standard not a lawyer disclaimer, etc.

There's a condition that likely covers this case:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-v-visitor-rules

V 4.7, (c): "billing a UK client for their time in the UK, where the
applicant’s overseas employer is contracted to provide services to a UK
company, and the majority of the contract work is carried out overseas.
Payment must be lower than the amount of the applicant’s salary"


David

Post by Julien Fiegehenn
A company I know in the UK has allowed some of its foreign employees to
move back to their countries and go entirely remote. That entails switching
to freelance for each of them. They do their tax in their respective EU
countries where they now live, and write invoices. That appears to be
simpler for the company and the developers.
it isn't a tax issue for me (or likely my possible client). i can be an
independent corp and bill them as a customer of my services. the issue is
what happens when i visit the client in the UK and train/work there. i know
of a case where a german was able to be in the US for up to 6 months on a
training visa before he had to apply and wait to get an H1B. after googling
around i see nothing of the kind in the reverse direction. and as tara
said, i feel remote work isn't well handled by the visa system.
guido said there are special agreements with UK and US work visas but i
haven't found any info about them.
a call to the boston UK consulate was a waste of time. the US embassy in
washington just was the same voice menu garbage sending me to their
website. the website has nothing about remote work nor short working visits.
thanx,
uri

[Paul Weaver]

This is a really useful page, Is there a US. equivalent?

4.6 seems to cover the OP if he worked for say Microsoft and was providing the services:

V 4.6 Permitted activities must not amount to the applicant taking employment, or doing work which amounts to them filling

a role or providing short-term cover for a role within a UK based organization. In addition, where the applicant is already paid

and employed outside of the UK, they must remain so. Payment may only be allowed in specific circumstances set out in V 4.7.

This would assume OP is employed by a U.S. company though. If OP worked for a company that employed half a dozen people, and separately provided support services to UK, German, Japanese and US firms, it would seem that an employee visiting the client in the UK (for training, for onsite work, etc) would be covered under the visitor visa.

However a company that exists solely to get around UK visa requirements would likely receive a dim view though - from both immigration and from the tax man. IR35 with an immigration twist?


________________________________
From: london.pm-***@groups.perlists.pm [london.pm-***@groups.perlists.pm] on behalf of David Leadbeater [***@dgl.cx]
Sent: 15 August 2018 08:31
To: London PM
Subject: Re: do i need a UK work visa?

Standard not a lawyer disclaimer, etc.

There's a condition that likely covers this case: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-v-visitor-rules

V 4.7, (c): "billing a UK client for their time in the UK, where the applicant’s overseas employer is contracted to provide services to a UK company, and the majority of the contract work is carried out overseas. Payment must be lower than the amount of the applicant’s salary"


David

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 at 06:51 Uri Guttman <***@stemsystems.com<mailto:***@stemsystems.com>> wrote:
On 08/14/2018 01:42 AM, Julien Fiegehenn wrote:
A company I know in the UK has allowed some of its foreign employees to move back to their countries and go entirely remote. That entails switching to freelance for each of them. They do their tax in their respective EU countries where they now live, and write invoices. That appears to be simpler for the company and the developers.


it isn't a tax issue for me (or likely my possible client). i can be an independent corp and bill them as a customer of my services. the issue is what happens when i visit the client in the UK and train/work there. i know of a case where a german was able to be in the US for up to 6 months on a training visa before he had to apply and wait to get an H1B. after googling around i see nothing of the kind in the reverse direction. and as tara said, i feel remote work isn't well handled by the visa system.

guido said there are special agreements with UK and US work visas but i haven't found any info about them.

a call to the boston UK consulate was a waste of time. the US embassy in washington just was the same voice menu garbage sending me to their website. the website has nothing about remote work nor short working visits.

thanx,

uri